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August 2004 Aug. 1, 2004 Subject: a couple questions G'day, I am curious to find out more facts about Joseph Smith & the court case of 1826. I would like to know where the gold plate & seeing eye stone are located now? Where have they been, have they been locked up somewhere or lost, buried? I have someone trying to tell me that they have seen them & have used them & had an experience. (I find this very laughable, I do not believe it.) Even though I've shared a few facts to this person from your website. I'd like some facts on the gold plate & seeing eye stone whereabouts please. I love your website Thank you, [Sandra's Note: Read the articles on our site about Smith's money digging, especially our #68 Messenger and #95 Messenger. Also see our Topical Index: Joseph Smith: Money-Digging and Magic. We have a small pamphlet by Wes Walters dealing with Smith's 1826 arrest. See Joseph Smith's Bainbridge, N.Y., Court Trials. Supposedly Smith gave the plates back to the angel in 1829. In the History of the Church, Smith writes:
The LDS Church evidently still has Smith's seer stone. At some point after completing the Book of Mormon Joseph Smith gave his stone to Oliver Cowdery. After Cowdery's death the stone went to Brigham Young's brother, Phineas, who brought it to Utah. (See interview with David Whitmer, Des Moines Daily News, Oct. 16, 1886. Quoted in Mormonism—Shadow or Reality?, p.41.) Hosea Stout, early LDS pioneer, wrote in his diary that Brigham Young had it in his possession:
Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith, who later became president of the church, wrote:
D. Michael Quinn gave the following information on the seer stone:
Hope this answers your questions.] Aug. 1, 2004 You really need to post on your website who you are and why you think you have so much information. You have stated falsehoods on your site- most of it dependent on the hope that the reader knows hardly anything about the Book of Mormon. By the way- the bible is the book to go to if you want to know about the pre-existence, baptisms for the dead, the three degrees of glory, and temple marriage. Thats why we read both the bible and BOM. What religion are you? You should work on preaching what you believe in, not what you hate and what you don't believe in. [Sandra's Note: Since we have a section on our web site entitled "About Us" I am a little puzzled by your statement that we need to inform people who we are. As to "falsehoods" on our site, you did not cite an example so I am at a loss to know what you are referring to. Part of finding the truth is eliminating error. If you have noted an actual error on our site, as opposed to a difference of opinion, we will gladly correct it. Almost all of our research can be verified at the University of Utah's Marriott Library and the BYU library. As to the LDS doctrines not found in the Book of Mormon, I must remind you that the angel supposedly told Joseph Smith that it contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." So I would expect it to teach the necessity of temple marriage, work for the dead, pre-existence, etc. I thought the whole point of bringing out the Book of Mormon was to restore those "plain and precious" doctrines that were deleted from the Bible. Utah Lighthouse Ministry is not directly affiliated with any denomination, although people from many different churches help support the work. We are Christians. We do not view any particular denomination as "the only true church" but view all Christians who take the Bible as their sole authority for doctrine as part of the body of Christ. Jerald and I attend the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church. Those on our staff attend other Christian churches. Thanks for writing.] Her response:
Aug. 2, 2004 Subject: mission trip Hello, ... I am 19 years old and am interested in being a part of a missions team to Utah, I have e mailed a few people about this but am yet to get a response, do you know of any teams that are organizing such a trip? Or do you know of anyone else I can contact for information? Thank you so much for any information you can provide In Christ [Sandra's Note: Try contacting one of these: Russ East, Utah Partnerships for Christ Rob Sivulka, Mormon Info Timothy Oliver, Watchman Fellowship There is also an organized effort each July to pass out literature at the Hill Cumorah pageant in New York, http://www.hillcumorah.org/Pageant/. Contact Tom Jones. His web site is: http://www.christianresearchandcounsel.org] Aug. 2, 2004 Subject: random question Hello I am writing this, not really knowing what I want to ask, but hoping you can help. I have become good friends with a woman I met at work--she is a mormon, I am a born again, bible believing Christian. When we met she was going through a divorce, and having problems with the mormon church (she become a mormon when she met her x-husband--just 2 years prior). We never talked much about religion--I invited her to my church and she came once....but I thought I should let it ride out, not be pushy. Well, she has recently become very dedicated [to] the mormon church, claiming all the peace in her life is due to her faith and the church. We have gotten into a few discussions about the differences between mormonism and Christianity, but they didn't go well. She admits she doesn't know much about the church, but is eager to learn--and I should too. I told her I would--not because I will ever buy into it, but so I can be a better witness to her. I am trying to learn all I can, but frankly the majority of the literature online is either too "in your face" to be useful in talking with her, or too deep for me to relay. I don't want to offend her thus rendering my witness useless--I need a soft approach. The hardest part about reaching her is this: she was a daughter of a penticostal preacher--one that raped her and all her sisters (and got them pregnant, and forced abortions--horrible story upon story). She was raised with such a distorted view of what Christianity should be, that its hard to preach the love of Christ--when all she knew was soooooo not loving. I apologize this is such a long email, and I understand this is probably one of many emails you receive on this subject- BUT, any advice you have will be much appreciated. I truly feel this is a spiritual battle and want to be as prepared as possible. Thank you, [Steve's Note: Let me start out by saying to you that although we get many letters from people, each one is important to us. Your letter and your concern is also our concern. I am glad that you are able to be there for this woman. There are so many awful and horribly painful things she has had to endure at the hands of others. I would encourage you to extend your friendship to her, not just because of your desire to help her see the errors in Mormonism, but simply out of a true love and concern for her as a person. What was done to her (and her sisters) is beyond words. My heart breaks thinking of how her view of God and her ability to trust God and others was damaged by someone who claimed to love and serve God. She will need help separating God from the terrible things done to her. She may be helped by a book like Toxic Faith: Experiencing Healing from Painful Spiritual Abuse. As for your desire to talk to her about her faith, I would encourage you to continue to make this a study where you work together to learn more about the LDS Church, its teachings and its history. You will probably find the paper titled Sharing Your Faith with Latter-day Saints helpful. You may also want to familiarize yourself with the following pages found on our Online Resources section of our website:
We will pray for her that she will be able to look to God in spite of what she has gone through; and we will pray for you as you share your faith with her that you may do so with love and gentle respect. If you need any further help please feel free to write or call us.] Aug. 3, 2004 Subject: name remove from the LDS records Hello, by researching the internet I found your excellent website. It is really a pity that it is not in German! God thanks I can read English. I joined the LDS-Church in 1995 not in order of their theology as I know now but cause of the feelings which the missionaries called The Holy Ghost. It turned out strange cause I never get a job in the church. Today I know that I understood their terms of God and so on in my way and not in the way Mormons think. One day a member told me about his trying to get in the Celestrial heaven, my answer shocked him as I said the Celestrial heaven do not bother me I am just doing my best and leave the rest to God and that God will never forsake me. The final cut of Mormonism came with an article in the [LDS magazine] Liahona Feb/2004 of Elder Nelson about God's love is not unconditional: If you do what I want you to do then and only then I (God) love you. That is not God that are the leaders of the Mormon Church speaking!! On your website is a very important part called Terminology Differences which is eyeopening. After reading that Mormonism reminds me of Orwells 1984! You should find a way to place that part better to find cause it is fundamental for the understanding of tricky brainwashing the LDS-Church is practising. Cause that church is really dangerous: they want to rule the world in the name of God - their God whom they want to become themselves. Their everlasting Kingdom of God which they trying to install reminds me of Hitlers 1000 years Kingdom. But at least I ask you why is it important to get my name removed from the LDS-records cause on the one hand it seems for me unimportant on the other hand I absolutely think worst of their leading caste!! sincerly from Hamburg in Germany [Sandra's Note: Just think of the impact on the LDS public image if everyone who no longer believed Mormonism took their name off the rolls. The membership might go down by a million or two, maybe more.] Aug. 3, 2004 hi, i just wanted to thank you so much for all of the information that you sent me, i received it yesterday. it was just what i needed. thank you again. my sister is the only one left in my family that is not a christian. thank you.... god bless Aug. 3, 2004 Dear Sandra, ... I am glad to hear that your ministry is in good hands and will continue. You can never underestimate the good you are doing or the number of people you influence. I have a couple of other questions for you. I met a Mormon girl last fall and was deeply attracted to her. I went into our relationship knowing very little about the beliefs of the LDS. I used your website and others like the Jim Spencers' to give me information on Mormonism. After seeing the differences between that and my strong Christian faith, I felt that I was unable to continue my relationship with her. One good thing about my interaction with the Mormons was that it revitalized my own Christianity. We were broken up for about four months when we started talking again, casually. During the time that we were apart she told me that she really started to dig into the gospel. After doing this (on her own), she says that she agrees much more with the Christian message and is no longer interested in the Mormon message. She is an avid reader of the Bible and is working hard to overcome the years of bad teaching. She wants to rely solely on Christ and worship him. She now sees the folly of the Mormon message and has worked hard at becoming a Christian. For example she travels a lot and is constantly meeting with different Presbyterian ministers when she in other cities. I have a few questions for you. How do I help her in this journey. We study the Bible together often and talk about scripture. She has attended Church with me on several occasions--I know that it is the Holy Spirit that will convert her--and I can see Him working in her--but what more should I do to help? She has not told her parents about this change and doesn't anticipate the conflict that this will cause, (her parents are temple Mormons--when I met her she was set on getting married in the temple) how can I help her through this and what advice should I give her when she talks to them about it? Thanks for all of your help, Yours in Christ, [Sandra's Note: What an answer to prayer that she has become more open. I think she would find encouragement and help from reading Out of Mormonism: A Woman's True Story. Some people leaving Mormonism face many days of doubt and emotional ups and downs. Many miss their friends and the familiar aspects of Mormon life. These issues are common to people leaving groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, Moonies, and the Mormons. These two books can help.
A good side by side comparison of LDS teachings and the Bible is Understanding Mormonism: Mormonism and Christianity Compared. Anyone interested in sharing their faith with a Mormon would benefit from reading Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons. People leaving Mormonism would find good support on the discussion group at http://irr.org/mit/mit-talk.html] Aug. 4, 2004 Subject: Men sealed to men Hello I heard about men being sealed to other men. Is this homosexual overtones? Is it true men were sealed to other men? electioneering to get people to join their kingdoms? any info would help... I am in hot debate over this with my mother and cannot find the references. She does not believe me. She thinks I am making this up. Sincerely, [Sandra's Note: Here is an article about it: #92 Messenger, Sealing Men to Men This sealing was not to make two men a couple, but to adopt sons to a man. Thus a man could increase/enlarge his 'kingdom' by having unrelated men sealed to him as sons.] Aug. 5, 2004 Thank you for your time, effort and historic study. It is hard to find open minded, sincere seekers of history and truth. It was a pleasure reading your articles on Joseph Smith and Masonry. Sincerely, Aug. 6, 2004 Sandra - I am glad God saved you and I am glad he has given you the grace you needed to stand strong and keep your faith alive. Your story gives us (spoiled east-coast Christians) a story to hang onto when we feel "alone" out here. It is hard moving from a complete Christian community to a barren land. ... Aug. 6, 2004 Subject: I seriously need information Greetings: ... Several of us (exmormon or soon to be) authors are getting together .. My story tells of domestic violence and my healing journey to recovery. ... I don't know if Sandra or anyone within your organization has access to any information about: 1. How the [LDS] hotline is used when abuse is reported - how often it is
used Any help with information would be greatly appreciated! Sincerely, [Sandra's Note: Here are some links to various sites.
See the letter for Aug. 6, 2003 on our Letters to the Editor. Official Government sites: Other articles:
Aug. 7, 2004 Dear Mr. and Mrs. Tanner: I have corresponded with you by email just a couple of times in recent months in looking for information ... in an attempt to respond to a dear niece of mine (Mormon, wife of a bishop...) who "innocently" or innocently sent a video to four aunts (including me) and her Mother (all Christians). The video was the Mormon production, "Finding Faith in Christ." For 20+ years, I have basically ignored the fact that she was Mormon. We are not together very often. However, now that she sent this video, which concludes with the invitation to contact the Mormon church, I feel that I must respond. So, I have been doing quite a bit of research. I only recently was given two of your books: "Shadow or Reality" and "Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible." I have been incredibly impressed with the depth and breadth of your knowledge and research. I have completed a response to her, which is basically an outline of 12 doctrines of Mormon teaching which are not in conformity with Biblical doctrine. ... Thank you again for your time and your ministry. Rejoicing in His grace! Aug. 8, 2004 Hi ... I thought you'd like to know that we have now had a visit from the local missionaries and will be meeting them on Wednesday night. My discussion at the door with them today was great - they asked questions that I know God was using me to answer for them (I certainly couldn't have been that eloquent and well answered on my own!!) Thanks for your perseverance and hard work - keep it up! Aug. 8, 2004 Hi! I understand the lamanites are not who the church thought they were . DNA has proven this doctrine 'wrong"? Can you comment on that? [Sandra's Note: The origin of Native Americans has been a matter of discussion since the days of Columbus. Mormonism has traditionally maintained that they descended from a group of Israelites who migrated from Jerusalem to the New World at approximately 600 B.C. The Introduction to the current Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites "are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." The traditional scientific view is that Native Americans descended from Asiatic people who crossed the Bering Strait thousands of years before the time-period of the Book of Mormon. The problem for Mormonism is that Mitochondrial DNA (tracing the mother’s line) supports the view that "99.4%" of Native American lineage "can be traced back to Asia." (See "Genetic Research a 'Galileo Event' for Mormons," by Thomas W. Murphy and Simon Southerton, Anthropology News, Feb. 2003, p.20.) Native Americans descend from Asiatic people, not Israelites. Mormon defenders have maintained that only a small percent of American Indians would be descendants of the Lamanites, which would explain why they don’t show up in the DNA samples that have been taken. However, LDS Church leaders have always said the Book of Mormon happened over all of North and South America. Also, that all Indians, even Polynesians, are descended from Book of Mormon people. Thus their DNA should show up in the samples that have been taken. Simon Southerton, an LDS scientist, became disillusioned after studying DNA. He has now written a book on the DNA research and its implications for the historical claims of the Book of Mormon. See: Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church. Also see the video DNA vs. The Book of Mormon. Our newsletter for November 2004 will deal with these issues.] Aug. 8, 2004 Subject: DNA article There was an article in the HOUSTON POST on Friday about an Australian scientist and former LDS bishop who says that he has discovered that there is no DNA supporting the BOM story about the Jews who came to the new world. Has anything like this come to your attention? [Sandra's Note: Yes, we know Simon Southerton, and carry his book. See: Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church.] Aug. 9, 2004 Subject: Lying for the Lord I have often heard the phrase "Lying for the Lord" which meant to me that lying is permissible as long as it is faith promoting. Where does this phrase originate? [Sandra's Note: The Mormons wouldn't directly say that one should lie for the Lord. Some would say it is more like giving milk before meat. But in reality many use deception when it comes to discussing problem areas of early LDS teachings. Joseph Smith lied about polygamy and found ways to justify it and the philosophy has continued to the present. While the Book of Mormon teaches that God is truthful and does not lie (Book of Mormon, Ether 3:12) the Book of Abraham has God commanding Abraham to lie:
However, the God of the Bible is a God of truth and does not lie (Numbers 23:19). Jesus promised "when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:..." (John 16:13) For more on the topic of lying for the Lord by early LDS Church leaders, see D. Michael Quinn's book, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power Vol. 1, pp. 88-89. His footnote 36 reads:
The article by B. Carmon Hardy, in the back of Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage, is especially good. Hope this helps.] Aug. 9, 2004 Mr. and Mrs. Tanner, ... I am from Oregon. I've been a Christian my whole life, but a friend of mine is Mormon. I've bought about 10 books from your website to try and show her the truth. She's really doubting Mormonism now. ... Thank you. P.S. Mr. and Mrs. Tanner, your work is legendary Aug. 11, 2004 Sandra, I sincerely do thank you for sending those most informative links to me. [see letter for Aug. 6] While each of us are doing what we can to help educate people, your tireless work reaches many people and we are all grateful for that - warm hugs to you. Aug. 11, 2004 Thank you for your ministry, the info you have on your sight has helped me a great deal in learning about Mormonism, and sharing this info with my LDS sister-in-law. I don't feel as if I am making any progress but the seeds are being planted. I have a question about a statement my sister-in-law has given me. I pointed out to her the three witnesses comments at the end of their witness in the Book of Mormon, which is, "And honor be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is one God, Amen." She says that this means "one in purpose." Just when was this terminology first used by the LDS? The earliest that I have bees able to find is October, 1978. Hope you can answer this, MAY GOD REWARD YOU WITH HIMSELF. [Sandra's Note: All Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in purpose. But the Mormons are trying to say that they are truly three separate gods. Thus they try to minimize the importance of the statements in the Book of Mormon on the oneness of the Godhead. There are several such passages in the Book of Mormon, declaring that they are ONE, and NONE of them say "in purpose"—just that they are ONE. See Contradictions in LDS Scriptures for Book of Mormon references to one God.] Aug. 12, 2004 Tanners, I just read the Time magazine article about the Mormon church's wealth. It indicates that the church makes a large amount of money each year from its investments and tithing. What I don't understand is what they do with it all. Surely maintaining and building temples and churches doesn't account for all that income?!?! What do they do with all that money? How much money do the leaders make from the church? Any guesses? Thanks, [Sandra's Note: The most current information on LDS finances is in the book, Mormon America: The Power and the Promise, by Ostling. The LDS Church invests in land and
businesses: They recently bought one of the major
malls in downtown Salt Lake. They already owned the other one: They own a significant part of downtown
SLC: LDS Church to invest 500 million in
downtown SLC: LDS Church is one of the largest
landowners in Nebraska: Aug. 12, 2004 Subject: Question about the Anthon Transcript and the broadside published about it ... A friend of mine who is investigating himself out of the church asked me about the Anthon Transcript and the broadside published by the church with characters from the transcript. He wondered if anyone had ever authenticated or declared the characters to be fraudulent. I actually don't know. I searched for the answer on your site and could not find it. I am also searching Mormonism—Shadow or Reality?. Any help you can give would be appreciated. [Sandra's Note: Here is some information from an article in the May, 1980 Sunstone Mag. by Edward Ashment, a former LDS Church employee, who was coordinator for Translation Services during the 1970's (see New Approaches to the Book of Mormon).
Hope this helps.] Aug. 13, 2004 Subject: Mormon Membership-HELP! Dear Mr. and Mrs. Tanner: Thank you very much for you website. The Lord has definitely sent me to it. I was a mormon as a child. I haven't attended the church in over 29 years. ALL OF A SUDDEN-I have become of interest to the church again. Maybe a couple of weeks ago, a couple older women came and "called" on me. I was polite and firm that I no longer want to be contacted by the church. They tried hard to come in to visit with me to "help me along". I refused (a new thing for me) and told them again it just isn't necessary to try to contact me any longer. One of the women got upset with me and asked me curtly, "then, what do you wish us to do?" I politely but firmly told her they could go ahead and remove me from their records. I am no longer a mormon-by my choice. They told me I would have to put it in writing. I scribbled a note that I no longer want to be affiliated or a member of the Mormon church and to remove my name from any and all lists. I didn't keep a copy of it. A week ago, I received a letter from the Bishop that was "nice" but intimidating and a little bit threatening-in my opinion. Anyway, he told me they were processing removal of my name from their records and that I had 30 days to change my mind. He also told me of the harsh consequences and that I am breaking covenant with my heavenly father of my baptism, etc. At first this deeply bothered me because I do not want to break covenant with God and Jesus. Then-God's Holy Spirit spoke to my heart and He reminded me-I haven't. I am standing for THE WORD-God's Holy Bible. I believe it to be Truth and my Only Source of Truth! I was then informed that I must contact the President and was given his information in order to stop the removal. I took this as a step in the right direction. THEN>>>>>>>>> This past Wednesday while I was at my church-two women who claimed to be my "sisters" wanted to call on me and said they would return to meet with me. Today, Friday, while my family and I were out to lunch, we found a note from 3 "sisters" (this time) that said they loved me a lot and would "call me" to set a time that was convenient to me. This upsets me a bit as our phone number is unlisted. I belonged to the church as a child and they know my married name along with my home address. Any advice? HELP! [Sandra's Note: I suggest you write a letter to the Bishop and state that you are still resolute in your desire to terminate your membership, that you expect an official letter from him when they have completed your name removal. Also state that you do not want any more calls from people in the Ward, that you have already indicated you don't want to be a part of their church and find these visits intrusive and disrespectful of your own faith. State that you want your name removed from ALL visitation and calling lists.] Aug. 14, 2004 How do true believing Mormons reconcile the fact that Smith disavowed polygamy right up in till his death? Yet the date on D&C:132 is July 12, 1843. Over a year prior to his death. [Sandra's Note: Most Mormons don't know Smith even practiced polygamy, let alone lied about it. Some have maintained that Smith wasn't lying—that his denials of plural marriage were accurate because the CHURCH did not officially teach it. But that is really splitting hairs. He did deny that he, himself, had more than one wife. We have some on this in our book, The Changing World of Mormonism, p.258. There is also a section dealing with this in our book Mormonism—Shadow or Reality?, chapt. 18, 'Mormonism and Truth.' Also read the various articles on our web site, see Topical Index: Joseph Smith: Polygamy.] Aug. 14, 2004 Subject: Geneology Are Mormons under some obligation or mandate from the church to write and publish their family tree? [Sandra's Note: Yes. They believe they must trace back their family line so that they can do proxy baptism and temple marriage for each of their ancestors. In 1990 the LDS Church news carried a reported of a BYU Seminar on genealogy:
Here is a quote from Joseph Fielding Smith, past president of the LDS Church:
Assistant Apostle Theodore Burton preached in the October Conference of 1966:
Aug. 15, 2004 Subject: Mormon Endowment How DARE you put such a horrible misrepresentation of a sacred ceremony on the internet!! I am shock and appalled! I KNOW the sacred ordinances performed in the temple and your flithy scrawl is full of lies and half truths!! How DARE you put such disgusting LIES up for all to read!! I'd say "may God have mercy on your soul" but I doubt such mercy will be reserved for someone such as yourself! You disgust me! Do not bother to reply, I will not read it! Aug. 16, 2004 Subject: Book of Mormon is true, but JS and LDS did fall Dear Mr. and Mrs. Tanner and Light House Ministry, Thanks for your site, and for your work in publishing. However, I think you are on the wrong road. Book of Mormon is true, but Joseph Smith and LDS did fall, because Secret Combination infiltrated and captured LDS at the very beginning. The brass/gold plates are in a safe place today, and in due time, GOD will reveal where they are. In the early 1800s, secret combination in US not only infiltrated and captured LDS, they infiltrated many theology colleges too. For example, they infiltrated "Yale School of Divinity", "Union Theological Seminary" of Columbia University in New York (see the book "America's Secret Establishment : An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones" by 'Antony C. Sutton'.) ... The main theme of the Bible is
This is also the main theme of Book of Mormon. Therefore we should be like Lehi, resolute and immovable in keeping the commandments of GOD, and ever flowing into righteousness. ... A Christian from Hong Kong P.S. Rely only on the Bible and the Book of Mormon, as advised by David Whitmer in his book "An Address to all believers of Christ". Aug. 16, 2004 I've read "A Way Which Seemeth Right: My Experience in Mormonism" by David A McCament, "Excerpts from "The Changing World of Mormonism" by Jerald and Sandra Tanner and I've read "Speaking the Truth in Love to Mormons" by Mark Cares and I've read several C.R.I. Research Institute perspectives on Mormonism and feel I have a good, general understanding of the differences between Mormons and Christians. My 53 year old brother formally raised in the Lutheran church, married a Catholic and converted to Catholicism, divorced and recently married a Mormon and joined the Mormon church ... started talking to me about Mormonism. Naturally I couldn't agree with him on his beliefs and explained why. At the time we were talking, I had not read all the above material and was going on my own knowledge of the Bible. I vaguely remembered from years ago that the Mormons had a different view of the virgin birth and I asked him about it. He answered like a Catholic and a Protestant and said Mary was conceived by the Holy Spirit. I went home to Washington and started searching and found quotes from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young stating that God the father with a physical body came down to earth and had sexual relations with Mary (I'm paraphrasing to you, but gave him the direct quote) he said he was fascinated and challenged. That he would need time to locate the source of the material to keep it in its original context. The implication is that the quotes are taken out of context. My question is there a book or something that you sell that shows the full document of these types of quotes? Thank you for taking the time to read this lengthy e mail. [Sandra's Note: Yes, we sell a set of photocopies from LDS books on this. See Godhead and Virgin Birth Photocopies.] Aug. 16, 2004 Subject: Mormon Temple Tri Cities WA Hi, You guys came to the Tri Cities, Washington when they built the new temple and Sandra spoke at my church (Calvary Chapel Tri Cities) I was unable to be there (I was out of town) however, I have recently listened to the tapes of your talk. I want to thank you both for the work that you have done. It helped a lot to learn what goes on during temple rituals. I grew up with many friends who were Mormon, but they never talked about what they really believed. So its nice to have some insight into their lives. (A really good friend was sealed in the Tri Cities Temple after it was built). It gives me better insight to pray for all my old childhood friends. It is also going to help when I have missionaries come to my door. I will be able to target some specific questions that they won’t want to answer. Also, I think its great that people have written you to tell you how “off course” you are. Just some words of encouragement: when you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one who yelps is the one who got hit”. Keep throwing the Rock! God Bless, Aug. 16, 2004 I just found your website for the first time today. I received a book from ebay, and also enclosed was a book list from Restoration Book Collection. In the list was a reference to Lighthouse Ministry. After reading some of your website, I felt compelled to tell you my story as well. I was raised in the Mormon Church, as were all of my relatives from as far back as I can remember. I am from ... Wyoming, Mormon country. My parents got divorced when I was in the 7th grade. My mom was excomunicated and told that her 5 daughters were going to grow up and be as sinful and wicked as she was, as a punishment for leaving my father. Anyway, she took all my sisters an me and moved to Southern New Mexico. She would occasionaly take us to Mormon Church, but it was 35 miles away. In New Mexico, for the first time, we met nice and holy people who were not Mormon. Anyway, this led all of my sisters and mother to eventually leave the church, or become "inactive" in the church. Now, 15 years later, we are all on a different spiritual path. I was received into the Roman Catholic Church after 7 years of studying it's theology. 3 of my other sisters are becoming Budhists, and another sister is not sure about anything. My mother has become an agnostic. My relatives (still very active mormons) are always sending missionaries to our homes. They say they are worried for us and are always praying for us. I am now trying to study mormonism in depth to better understand my relatives, which I love dearly, in order to better communicate my beliefs and understandings. Because, as you know, many words, terms, and phrases originally used by Christians have been adopted by Mormons, but the meanings are changed. So when talking to Mormons, one word means something different to both of us! It seems, though, that arguments and proofs mean nothing to Mormons. My family is an outcast at family reunions, and not invited, of course, to any weddings, baptisms, blessings ......that my relatives have. I am in search of holiness, truth, and peace. I have found this in the Catholic Church, founded by Christ himself and put into practice by his very own first apostles. I am not claiming that the Catholic Church is perfect, because it is just mere humans that make up the church, but I would claim that this church contains the history and truth of Christ and Christianity. I am in a constant battle trying to understand religion, and why so many people, all around the world choose to seperate themselves, rather than joing themselves. I also long for someone else to communicate with who has been through some of the same struggles and understandings as myself. I have heard of a man named Tom Smith. Do you know anything about him? ... I once heard a statistic that a mormon church is errected somewhere in the world everyday, and I am very afraid for our world. ... In Christ, [Sandra's Note: Thanks for writing. I am glad to hear you are seeking a closer walk with God. While I am not Catholic, I will try to send you some helpful Catholic links. You might contact— http://catholic-rcia.com/pages/Utah_Mission.html Here are a couple of books you might find interesting. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1888992069/104-1986444-5954314?v=glance http://www.saintjoe.com/p/prod_desc.pl?id=302 also see http://www.angelfire.com/ms/seanie/mormon/index.html You might enjoy reading this new book by Norman Geisler, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences. http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0801038758/ref%3Dnosim/bookssites05-20/701-6232006-9532324 ] Aug. 16, 2004 Subject: shem and melchizedek Did Joseph Smith ever actually say that he believed that Shem and Melchizedek were the same individual, or is D&C 138:41 as close as he came to that assertion? It calls Shem "the great high priest." According to some of my Mormon friends, Joseph Smith said Shem was Melchizedek. If so, do you have any idea where he might have gotten that idea? There was a very real tradition among early Jews that said that Shem and Melchizedek were the same person. I can provide Talmud quotations if you like. But I would like to know where Joseph might have gotten this. I doubt Sidney Rigdon would have known about an ancient Jewish tradition, but maybe you have more insight than I about how Joseph could have deduced this from the Bible? Thanks, [Sandra's Note: I can not find a direct quote from Joseph Smith that Melchizedek was Shem. Here are quotes from several LDS sources. B. H. Roberts, in The Truth, The Way, The Life, stated:
Here is a quote from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:
Gerald Jones wrote in a BYU publication:
Hope this helps.] Aug. 17, 2004 Subject: BOM 1830 vs present Hello Tanners, We recently added our name to your mailing list and got a wonderful supply of pamphlets ect ... My question is where on your site or in your book list can I find out more information about the 1830 Book of Mormon vs. the present day version? We downloaded and printed your 3,913 changes but wanted more info such as scripture comparisons. At the present time we are having weekly visits with some LDS Sisters and need more info to talk with them about the differences between the "Original" and current versions. My husband went today to the local Dessert Book Store and bought a Book of Mormon 1830 edition. It was up high on a shelf looking very inconspicuous! We thought it would at least be behind the counter J Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again, [Sandra's Note: A good resource is The Christian Companion to the Triple Combination, by Coleen Ralson, or our book, Joseph Smith's Plagiarism of the Bible. Also read the various articles listed in our Topical Index: Book of Mormon, such as:
Aug. 19, 2004 Subject: research documents While looking at your website, I took notes of some of the documents you quoted. (The LDS might classify me as an "investigator") I wanted to give the LDS a chance to defend themselves against what they might call "anti-Mormon lies." So I went to the LDS.org website and tried to locate those early documents that I had written down. NO luck. The closest I could come to was a copy of the sheet from the Palmyra printing press from 1830 that they hand out to visitors. I compared those sixteen pages of that sheet to a newer Book of Mormon and found several grammatical "corrections" had been made since 1830. However, since there were only sixteen pages, I couldn't verify any significant changes [i.e. changes that would alter the meaning of the original] that were found later. Anyway, I wanted to find out whether you could tell me how to get a hold of original copies of the early Mormon documents [without spending hundreds of dollars patronizing a Mormon bookstore]. Could I get access at a state institute? Would I be allowed access in Salt Lake City, if I found my way there? I apologize for taking so much of your time, but I do hope that you can help me. It's quite unfortunate that anyone critical of the LDS is labeled as an "anti-Mormon" and tuned out; otherwise, I wouldn't need original copies to show to my Mormon friends. Thanks, [Sandra's Note: A good source of photos is the book, Where Does It Say That? We sell copies of the original Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants:
The LDS bookstore sells a CD-ROM program called LDS Collector's Library 2005. See: http://deseretbook.com/store/product?product_id=100104199 This has the 26 vol. set of Journal of Discourses, History of the Church, plus dozens of other LDS titles. For a complete list of titles see: http://www.ldslibrary.com/lds-titles/complete-list.aspx Most of the books we quote from are in the various college and university libraries here in Utah and are easily available to anyone using the libraries.] Aug. 19, 2004 Dear Friends, Thank you...thank you...THANK YOU! Today I received the lovely package with the book "The Ins and Outs of Mormonism." All the great pamphlets and tracts were more than enough. As soon as I received it, I started making a list so that the material could be passed out throughout the prison yard. Thank you so much. . . . Aug. 19, 2004 Subject: Out of the darkness Glory to God for your ministry ! I was but an infant in Christ when the angelic in appearance Mormon missionaries first approached my doorstep. They came to me with the "good news and fullness of the gospel". Everything in their introductory lessons sounded very kosher with traditional Christianity. Their core "deep doctrine" is not however, taught openly. I did not find out the lies in "their truth" but by the Grace of God through your ministry. Before my baptism into their church I was praised for my research and questions. However, after my baptism, I was "counseled" not to test the teachings of the church because that is a slippery slope that will only lead to the loss of my testimony. Yesterday I went to their church and informed a member of their bishopric that I don't believe in their teachings and want out. He informed me "its not that simple" and proceeded to tell me I need to meet with the bishop. Fear not Utah Lighthouse Ministry. I will gladly inform their bishop that he has no authority over me in the true Kingdom of God and I will instruct him (as part of my legal right with membership in any organization) to remove my name from membership in the church records. I will return to my True Calling by going to Bible College and sharing the Real "Good News" with the world. I would be grateful for your help in obtaining some legitimate photo copies of early Mormon teachings (ie. 1830 teachings of the book of Mormon that have been changed from modern day, teachings from early Mormon leaders that contradict their doctrines etc) I plan to meet with their bishop one last time. However I would like to be armed for that confrontation. I plan to share the truth about Mormonism to the world. I am eternally grateful. ... God Bless You and Keep the Light Shining Bright, Aug. 19, 2004 Subject: A suggestion I am an active LDS, return missionary, etc. I just have one comment regarding your interesting newsletters and materials. Why not just state the facts you have carefully assembled and tell the story? It appears there is often a hateful tone to your wording, character judgments that just are not necessary and almost promote the idea most members of the faith have of you. I try to be open-minded, and currently am tunneling through the wealth of anti-Mormon material and find your newsletters and material helpful, but the tone of many of your statements turns me off. Stick with the facts. With that said, would love to meet you someday in person. Kind Regards, Aug. 21, 2004 Subject: Recognizing Truth I am a very active member of the LDS church but I am not prone to lambast so-called "anti-mormons." I respect the fact that the both of you have used the intellects that God gave you and of your own free will concluded that the LDS church is false and thusly seek to inform others of its invalidity. In other words you feel that you are sincerely serving Christ by doing what it is that you do and how can you condemn someone who seeks to dilligently and sincerely, in the best dictates of their conscious, serve our Lord and Saviour and thusly God. I, too, am a seeker of gospel truth and my curiosity was piqued when I read your testimonies where you both claim to have found the true gospel of Christ outside the LDS church. I refer to Jerald when he wrote "I was nineteen years old before I heard the true message of Christ preached, and that was in another church" and from this I draw my questions to you. If the LDS church is false then I ask which church in all of Christendom teaches the true message of Christ and how can I recognize the truth? In order for the LDS church to be false you must measure it against that which is true to disprove it. Where is Christ's true message taught? Thanks in advance. [Sandra's Note: We look to the Bible alone for the true gospel of Christ. We attend a local Christian church but do not look to any one denomination as being the 'only true church' as the Mormons would define it. We accept all believers in Christ, who are trusting in him alone for eternal life, as being part of the spiritual body of Christ, his church. Paul counseled the early Christians to measure anyone's claims against the apostles' teachings. See Gal. 1:8-9. The Bible teaches that God has always existed as God; Mormonism (Joseph Smith and his successors) teach that God was once a mortal who achieved godhood. This teaching alone disqualifies Mormonism as teaching the same gospel as the Bible. Another contradiction is that the Bible teaches eternal life is granted to those who look to Christ's atonement as the complete payment for their sins. However, Mormonism teaches that one cannot receive eternal life (the highest level of heaven and exaltation) without LDS temple marriage and participation. Thus the LDS version of 'eternal life' is very different from that of the Bible. See:
Aug. 25, 2004 I read a article of yours not to long ago, and found it a bit disturbing. It was about a couple of bastard bishops. And I have to ask you all a question, cause I'm not to say if these stories are true or not, although I don't doubt them. But back to my question are you excommunicated members? I myself and not in good standing in the church, but could care less to say bad things about general authorities or missionaries or temple work. Because who really cares? I don't. The reason I came across your web site is cause I was reading in the salt lake tribune a article about something dealing with the church, a lawsuit case, and was interested in getting more detail about the case and came across your site. And read about half of what you had posted. What is your motive behind this? Because it looks as if you put alot of time into your work and my question is why? And don't give me the typical "because we need to get out the truth" statement. Respond to my e-mail with an explanation. [Sandra's Note: I am not sure what web site you were reading. We are referenced on a number of other people's sites. Our official site is www.utlm.org. However, if you go to our site, we have a section telling of our background. Briefly, we are former Mormons, now Evangelical Christians, who feel the LDS people have not been given a fair chance to make an informed decision as to the truthfulness of Mormonism's claims. Since its doctrines are radically different from standard Christianity, based on the Bible, we fear the Mormon is not fully trusting in Christ for his/her eternal life, but adding Smith's temple ritual as a necessity. And we do feel "we need to get out the truth." I am not sure why you find that so objectionable. That is the same reason Mormons send out missionaries to get people from other churches to join theirs.] Aug. 26, 2004 Subject: Journal of Discourses It was interesting reading some of the speeches of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I'm glad they're accessible to people. Thanks. As I read a few things that were uncomfortable, like those aspects of Joseph and Brigham that you are exposing, I realized that these men were imperfect, as are all men. Prophets in the Savior's day did the best they could, but were not perfect. All prophets have been given certain work to do, yet they remain imperfect. Words uttered and deeds performed had mistakes along the way. Are you and I more "perfect" than they? . . . Sincerely, [Sandra's Note: As Christians we believe that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). However, when it comes to someone claiming to speak for God we are told to examine his/her teachings to see if they agree with that of the apostles (Gal. 1:6-9). Also, Christ warned of false prophets in Matt. 7:15-23, and said "by their fruits ye shall know them." By that standard we can know that Joseph Smith is not a prophet of God. Joseph Smith taught heresy, gave false prophecies, rewrote what he claimed were the words of God, invented scripture, lied about polygamy and cheated on his wife (see The Changing World of Mormonism). What are your criteria for determining if someone is a true or false prophet?] Aug. 26, 2004 HI guys, Appreciate your ministry so much. I'm a prior Mormon who knows that your ministry has been largely instrumental in helping many LDS out of the church, as your material did the same for me. ... Aug. 26, 2004 Subject: Jesus and mormonism do mormons still teach that Jesus was just a man who became a God? And that we can do the same? [Sandra's Note: Yes, but they now are more careful in their wording in their public writings. See these links.
Aug. 27, 2004 Subject: Thanks Thank you so much for the job you are doing. I escaped from the RLDS church that was started by Joseph's son, Joseph the third. I grew up in attending the first church of the Reorganization in Plano, IL, and I was born in southern Iowa where the headquarters was moved before finally moving to Independence, which is Lamoni Iowa. ... I read the book The Godmakers that convinced me that Joseph was a fake. I'm so glad that you are devoting your time and effort in putting a stop to all this ridiculousness. Thank you so much! Aug. 27, 2004 Hello, ... I'm a Christian, my girlfriend however is a mormon. I've read many books on the religion, most from you guys. I try to witness to her and show her why Mormonism does not follow the bible, what should I do to help her [Sandra's Note: Would she watch a couple of videos? Maybe DNA vs. The Book of Mormon, or The Lost Book of Abraham? Or even Burying the Past: The Legacy of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. You might want to order our set of photos called Godhead and Virgin Birth Photocopies. These will help you demonstrate that the LDS leaders are teaching some very false doctrines. You could even just hand her the photos and ask her to read through them and then discuss them with you at a later time. Or maybe you could call Deseret Book at 801-328-8191 and order the book, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Newell and Avery. They are two LDS women historians so one can't charge them with being 'anti' Mormon. However, their book tells about Smith's involvement with magic when he meets Emma, how they had to elope since her dad objected to her marrying a guy with no visible means of support, how Smith took extra wives and how Emma struggled with that. In other words, it tells a lot of their embarrassing history but never says Smith was a false prophet. You could even suggest you read it together and discuss it. You could just tell her someone you know suggested it as a good book on the beginnings of Mormonism. She probably arrived at her "testimony" of Mormonism by prayer and feelings. Remind her that people in various religions claim similar spiritual experiences and answers to prayer, yet get various answers. I am not saying a person should not pray to know the truth of Christianity, but that must be coupled with an examination of the teachings in the New Testament. Paul warned against teachers that would pervert the true gospel of Christ (see Gal. 1:8-9). If the LDS prophets do not agree with the Bible they should be rejected. It all takes prayer, time and patience. The main thing is to try to get her thinking about the issues, why does she believe what she does and how do we determine truth. Be sure to read the various pages on Theology under Online Resources.] Aug. 27, 2004 Subject: Is it true? I heard that there is an underground Tunnel like city under the Temples in Utah. Is this true? If it is why is it there? What is the purpose? [Sandra's Note: There are tunnels under temple square in downtown Salt Lake. They were started in 1889, at first to connect the temple with the annex building next door (see "The Journal of L. John Nuttall," Tues. July 23, 1889, New Mormon Studies CD-ROM) and later expanded to other buildings. These enabled LDS leaders to walk back and forth from their offices to the temple without being in public. That way someone could go from the Joseph Smith building (the old Hotel Utah) to the temple without walking out in public. The LDS Church security guards have offices under temple square. In the book Salt Lake City Underfoot, by Mark Angus, we read:
In the article "Inside the Salt Lake Temple: Gisbert Bossard's 1911 Photographs," by Kent Walgren, is a 1911 map of the northern portion of Temple Square showing the underground tunnels (see Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol.29, No.3, Fall 1996). In a news article published in Sunstone, 1987, we read about the tunnels that connect the various buildings in downtown Salt Lake:
When I was a young person, in the 1940's-1950's, you could go down a stairwell on the southwest corner of temple square and walk through a tunnel under the road to the other side of the street, coming up in front of the Hotel Utah, which is now a church office building. There were others of these in the city. These were similar to the subway stairs in New York. I assume there were connecting doors down there leading to other tunnels, but the only path open to the public was the one to enable you to get from one side of the street to the other. Hope this helps.] Aug. 29, 2004 I have attended 2 Mormon funerals this summer. At both funerals, a man holding the Melchizedek priesthood said a prayer of protection on the gravesite. In the prayer he said only those holding the Melchizedek priesthood can pray for protection of the gravesite. Is this something new in Mormonism...Please give me information on this belief. Thank You, [Sandra's Note: They have been saying such prayers at the graveside as long as I can remember. I remember such a prayer at my grandmother's funeral back in the 1960's, where the person praying (I think it was her bishop) prayed that her body would be preserved from decay, that she would come forth whole in the morning of the resurrection, that nothing would disturb the site, etc., etc. It all seemed a bit extreme. Did he really think she would not decay?] Aug. 29, 2004 i am interested in the translation done by JS and if the papyri have other documented translations done by non-LDS. the resourses that i have read were by those with an obvious axe to grind...thanks for any info. sincerely, [Sandra's Note: See the article by Dr. Robert Ritner, of the Univ. of Chicago, "THE BREATHING PERMIT OF HÔR" AMONG THE JOSEPH SMITH PAPYRI from the Journal of Near Eastern Studies, no.3, 2003. There were articles on the translation in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, back in the 1970's. One was by Ritner's predecessor at the Univ. of Chicago, Dr. Claus Baer.] Aug. 29, 2004 Subject: Burying the Past DVD Hello, I recently ordered and watched the DVD "Burying the Past: The Legacy of the Mountain Meadows Massacre". I was fortunate enough to watch it along with some Mormon friends of mine that had no objections before the documentary started. During the documentary, it was stated that Brigham Young and the Mormon church in his days were an old testament people and believed in vengeance, and they believed in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. At this time, my Mormon friends scoffed at what they heard and started saying that the documentary was "so wrong" and "way off". Can you help point me to any information that I can present to them to show that this was indeed how the early Mormons felt? I really liked the DVD, but my friends have since labeled it as "anti-Mormon material". They say that it was a one sided documentary, but I think it's just another case where not very many Mormon historians or leaders wanted to voice their opinions about the massacre for fear of embarrassment. Another part of the documentary that my friends strongly disagreed with was the part that talked about Brigham Young looking at the cedar cross built upon the stone cairn mound in 1861 and reading "vengeance is mine" and then Brigham stated "and I have taken a little". They can't believe that this can be true. Thanks for your hard work and any suggestions, [Sandra's Note: These points are easily documented. Here is a quote from a Mormon historian:
Richard Poll's footnote no.3 is taken from Wilford Woodruff's Journal, vol.5, p.577, edited by Scott Kenney. This nine volume typescript of Woodruff's journal is in most of the universities in Utah. I have a set in my library. Apostle Woodruff was a faithful Mormon and went on to become president of the LDS Church in 1889, so would have no reason to make this up. For more information see these links:
Most references can be seen at the Salt Lake Public Library, the Utah State Historical Society Library, BYU library and the Univ. of Utah Marriott Library, to name a few.] Aug. 30, 2004 I just happened to be watching T.V. last week and there the program on about Mark Hoffman and you spoke. [City Confidential: Faith and Foul Play in Salt Lake City] It reminded me of your faithful ministry down through the years. I learned a lot from reading your material and have probably given a hundred of your book "Mormonism—Shadow or Reality?" to Mormons over the years. Right now we are dealing with some older Mormon missionaries. . . . Aug. 30, 2004 Looking for where it says that the church stands or falls on Joseph Smith. [Sandra's Note: I believe the quote you are looking for is from Apostle Joseph Fielding Smith (who later became the president of the LDS Church):
A similar statement was made by Apostle George F. Richards in 1948:
Aug. 30, 2004 Dear Tanners, Thank you so much for your ministry and love for those trapped in the false religion of Mormonism. I had the opportunity to read your latest jour dealing with "Blacks and the Mormon Priesthood." I was sadden as I read the overt racism within Mormon teachings regarding the Priesthood and blacks. I am aware that a change has been made. However, this does not take away the incredible hurtful and demeaning statements made by past leaders of the Mormon Church: Joseph Smith Junior, Brigham Young, John Taylor and others. These are men who were considered prophets, apostles and leaders of millions. These were men supposedly filled with Spirit of God and spoke under inspiration. Nor does the current racism in Mormon doctrine regarding the Pre-existence, war in heaven and certain spirit beings turn black as punishment for their stands; or the LDS scripture regarding black skin being a curse. I do not see the spirit of love with these teachings. . . . All this material is very painful; especially when you are the person who is the subject of it. I am an African-American, so it is easier for me to speak on this subject from my perspective than someone who is not. I was never a Mormon, however, I had considered looking into the LDS Church. I had attended the LDS Church services, fireside chats, missionary discussion lessons, and play volleyball for 5 years with one of the local wards. The LDS teachings and statements made by its leaders along with their scriptures regarding Blacks was one of the reasons I knew this church could not be true, nor was its leaders inspired. The Mormon Church claims to be a restoration of Jesus' Church and his teachings. However, Jesus never taught any of the racist comments made by LDS leaders. On the contrary, Jesus of the Bible said the following: "For God so loved the World that Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16 also "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" . . . Matthew 28:14-20 . . . Mormonism stresses race, True Christianity stresses grace. Mormonism stresses personal work. True Christianity stresses redemption through Cross of Jesus Christ. I choose love over hate. . . . Finally, Thank you Mr and Mrs. Tanner. I came to Utah in the early 1990's and met Mrs. Tanner. It was your love and caring spirit that make it possible for me, an African American, to love my neighbor—those in the religion of Mormonism. Thank you. God bless you, Aug. 30, 2004 hello i was wondering if you can help me i have spoken to some mormons and they keep using Job where it says sons of God that we were pre existed also when i tell them that Jesus is not Lucifer brother they bring up the fact that they call satan morning star and Jesus is morning star so they are brothers . so if you have any info that can help me show the mormons he has the wrong defenition when he says morning star and sons of God. are Jesus brother and we are pre existed i appreciate your web sites ithas help me alot you are a blessing [Steve's Note: Although Mormons like to refer to Job to demonstrate their concept of pre-existence, the context of Job 38 is that God is asking Job a series of rhetorical questions which Job can not answer. The "sons of God" spoken of here are clearly a reference to angels, not humans. Job can not answer God because Job was not there when God created the world so how would Job be in any position to advise God on what he should do with his creation? The whole of the Bible must be considered when formulating doctrine. According to John 1:14 and Ephesians 1:5 it is 'belief' that brings us into a relationship with God as his sons (daughters): we are not God's children before belief. As for your question regarding Satan and Jesus being referred to as the "morning star" here are a couple of my thoughts on this. The passage in Isaiah may not necessarily be referring to Satan at all. Scholars are divided on this question and whether Isaiah was speaking just about the historic king of Babylon or if he was intending a deeper meaning to include Satan, the fallen angel who opposes God. Regardless of which view is taken there are a few things that need to be considered here. In Isaiah 14 the tone is one of mocking and ridicule. So God is calling the king of Babylon (and perhaps Satan) the Morning Star even while he is being cast down. This is a figure of speech to demonstrate that the one referred to is most definitely not what he is claimed to be. This would be equivalent to saying to someone that they are "such a wise person" when you really mean just the opposite. The true Morning Star which John saw in Revelation 22:16 (and who is spoken of in Numbers 24:17) is one who rises in glory never to be cast down. The one who is called the Morning Star in Isaiah is falling down whereas the true Morning Star always rises. I hope this information helps.] [Additional note from Sandra: You might find the book Reasoning from the Scriptures with Mormons helpful.] Aug. 30, 2004 To: Sandra Tanner Author David Persuitte sent me a copy of your SLCM, dated May 2004, in response to an enquiry I sent him. Let me tell you about the situation here in Scotland: We have the established/historical churches, i.e. Ango/Catholic/Episcopalian etc. and of course the (Presbyterian) Church of Scotland. The L.D.S. Church, with a claimed membership of 25,000+ and growing, are making ground with the lapsed or "non-active" members of mainstream churches, or those who feel disillusioned/disenfranchised! When the L.D.S. came to me, they must have thought it was Christmas come early-- I didn't slam the door, or tell them to *?#! I agreed to read the BM! Then I got hold of a copy of David's excellent book, "J.S. and the Origins of the B.M." 2nd ED.. and then I got myself a copy of the original 1830 B.M. from Herald House! Oh dear, that wasn't in the script.... Of course, it's not every day that the L.D.S. missionaries come across an awkward old sod like me, who is willing to read the B.M. and isn't afraid to question it! Mostly, they are more or less "unchallenged," and have things pretty much their own way here. Scotland really needs a "Lighthouse Mission" to counterbalance the aggressive proselytizing of the L.D.S. over here. ... I regard myself as a Christian (not a "born-Again", just a plain ordinary believer in Christ). However, I am probably as well-read & well informed as any non-member layman, in this country, and I would be willing to do what little I can to try to restore the balance. Love the "Extracts" at the back of the SLCM, they nearly all seem to be heavily "Pro-Mormon" or "Anti-Mormon", there doesn't seem to be much in the way of "Middle-Ground" in this debacle. I hope and pray that you will be able to continue your valuable work. TRUTH is more important than religious arrogance and bigotry. May the LORD bless you, and keep you, and bring you peace. Yours faithfully, Aug. 31, 2004 Hi, I have been on your mailing list for quite awhile, and I consider it a privilege to receive your mailings. I am a devoted, unwavering [Christian] believer who is married to a DEVOUT LDS member -- including temple assignment.... We have been married for ... years and have a love based marriage; however, the rift we experience due to our faith differences is powerful and disheartening. Your mailings help me immensely. ... |
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